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Balance the Bombardier by reworking the stagger mechanic.

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  • Balance the Bombardier by reworking the stagger mechanic.

    So we all know that Bombardiers is quite literly the most overpowered unit in base defense. Barrage of accured bombs with stagger for days. Nothing can get through a good choke point if its bombarded constantly by over 7 or more bombardiers. Previous nerfs have been useless as Bombardiers is still recking havoc today.

    "Lel noob. use decoys and win." Sure let me put my deck full of decoys, oh whoops! I don't have enough mutions to deploy new units or focus fires to destroy walls. What i have come to see after playing this game from before any heroes were in this game, i can tell you that Bombardiers has always been the best and even better than the Mercenary before the nerfs that completely destroyed him. Wait the release of Riot would have also done the job of making the pre-nerf mecenary lose it's spot as the top defender unit.

    So you can nerf Bombardier all you want, but it will never make him balanced and the fault is in the stagger mechanic. Unit after getting staggered can instantly be staggered again, again again till it dies. To make it so that the stagger mechanic could not be abused again this way is to make it that a unit can not suffer another stagger for 4 - 5 seconds after being staggered for the first time. This would allow the units to land couple shots at the bombardiers before being killed or staggered again by the constant nade barrage. Or haha maybe make the Bombardier hella unaccured, so the grenades will not land so close to each other?

    Here is my opinion about why the Bmbardier is op in base defending. What's your opinion? I would like to know.
    Last edited by Kumiankka98; 04-28-2018, 02:10 PM.

  • #2
    To make it so that the stagger mechanic could not be abused again this way is to make it that a unit can not suffer another stagger for 4 - 5 seconds after being staggered for the first time.

    wow.... You are a genius. I did not even think about it.

    Comment


    • Kumiankka98
      Kumiankka98 commented
      Editing a comment
      Are you being sarcastic? Anyway Bombardier will never be balanced if they don't do some type of changes to the stagger mechanic. What do you think they should do?

    • godforceok
      godforceok commented
      Editing a comment
      It is not sarcastic. I thought Bombardier had a balance problem. I have praised you because I have never done such brilliant thoughts. I think your idea(a unit can not suffer another stagger for 4 - 5 seconds after being staggered for the first time.) is very novel.

    • Kumiankka98
      Kumiankka98 commented
      Editing a comment
      Sorry about that. Glad to see that you also understand that theere is something else in this game that makes bombardier op and it's not in his stats.

  • #3
    I dont see ur problem i can beat easy 9/10 bombardier base u just need good layout. And good attack strategy i love attack bombardiers bases they so easy to beat

    Comment


    • Kumiankka98
      Kumiankka98 commented
      Editing a comment
      Thats your opinion but there are many that have the same type of feelings about bombardier in base defence. "u just need a good layout." That's pretty much the same thing that all others who use bombardiers say. Also there is no immunity to stagger and i hope that there never will be. The hero perk Iron lunghs was already a bad thing and should have never happened to this game.

      Thou i have no idea if you use bombardiers.

  • #4
    Leave the bombardier bases untouched; they are the only bases that are still fun to attack and pose a serious threat.

    These bases are all about momentum, you have to create the circumstances in which your units can get the first shots off, not some sort of stagger mechanism that lets you attack on autopilot.

    The reason people think the bombardier is OP in defense, is because the other units are just very weak in defending and bombardiers might be the only bases they lose to.

    Just my opinion on the matter

    Comment


    • cusman
      cusman commented
      Editing a comment
      I think you make very good point about Bombardier bases being only bases that still pose a serious threat.

      The main problem with Bombardier is that it is an overly popular good defense choice. The real problem is that the other units are not able to provide such a strong defense as the 5:30 Bombardier base.

      I have run into some creative 5:30 Flamer bases and some really strong Ranger and Sniper bases, but majority of the more difficult bases we all know use Bombardiers because with Iron Lungs they are immune to Tear Gas and do the least self-destruction against Decoy as well (unlike Rocketeer). They also have really fast cool down and can shoot over things, and do very high damage that stuns. It is just a stacked unit that is great for Defense while not so great at Offense.

      To me the real problem is lack of variety in harder bases. Slight variations in the Bombardier defense. An increasing number of the 5:30 cookie cutter ones. It just makes the game less interesting.

    • Maus_1908
      Maus_1908 commented
      Editing a comment
      You're right Cusman about the lack of diversity in hard pvp bases, they are very bombardier heavy. That is unfortunately the effect of the nerfing process started by the devs; getting rid of a multitude of setups while leaving us with a prevailing one.

      In my opinion we do not need to focus on nerfing the bombardier, because we have seen what nerfing has done in the past; it has destroyed hard setups. Instead we may focus on giving other units a little "oomph" in the defending setups.
      Last edited by Maus_1908; 04-30-2018, 02:09 AM.

  • #5
    I have tried high-end Steady perk (up to Ultra) and not found that to do anything against explosive attacks like Grenade Launcher and Bombardier. It seems the Steady perk only helps units avoid getting staggered by bullets. The only unit that doesn't stagger to explosives (but can stagger to bullets) is the Engineer. I have moderate success using Engineers along with my Riots against Bombardier bases when not relying on Rally & Focus Fire from the top (which for me is based on luck because I can't / don't take in 3 Focus Fires and 3 Rally Flags).

    Unfortunately, the Engineer tactic only works if the opponent doesn't have Diamond perks. My troops don't have Diamond perks (mix of Legendary and Ultra) and that might be a big factor in my personal struggles. That said if the opponent doesn't have Iron Lungs, than sometimes even Diamond Perk opponents can be wrecked by good timing use of Tear Gas which as you know lasts much longer than the Decoys.

    Alternatively even if some bases have the quality perks (like Diamond) and Iron Lungs, if they aren't the cookie cutter 5:30 Bombardier base you can make it work in more cases than not.

    The best way to consistently destroy the cookie cutter 5:30 Bombardier base is to use Rocketeer in your loadout which makes your Focus Fire have longer range (even for the other troops who normally have less range. Rocketeer can also go over rocks and walls to go hit the targets you want if you have to use Focus Fire from awkward positions. It may be one of the unspoken secrets of the game that your max range for all units under Focus Fire is determined by your longest range unit in the squad.

    Alliance: Helldivers
    YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/cusman

    Comment


    • Kumiankka98
      Kumiankka98 commented
      Editing a comment
      Thanks for the tips. They should make it so that Steady also works against explosives. I don't get it why Steady does not work vs explosives.

  • #6
    Stop try explain lol gonan change again and this game is worthless... 99% off al bases are already wandeling in the park. U just wonna nerf the game cause u cant beat them. M8 nerfing the game even more and u can even put empty base same effect. So pick up ur stuff and learn how to attack bombardier bases. They are so easy to beat u just need to know how. U wonma nerf cause u cant beat it thats just very sad

    Comment


    • Kumiankka98
      Kumiankka98 commented
      Editing a comment
      You make no sense. Every red skull base i face almost 80% time uses Bombardiers. I have about 10 focus fire cards and same amount of Bardbed wire immunity cards. Nerfing the game? Bombardier is op and everyone knows it. They should make units balanced and that Bombardier is not.

      You seem to be defending the Bombardiers ability to stun lock opponents units. People seem to pick only for that reason. While the opponents units are perma staggered by the constant bombardment, your bases hq squad units and s-towers + bunkers pick off the enemy units. Thats how it all goes. I have played against high level bases that wield bombardiers and it seems that bases that use them are in increase. Soon there will not be anything else than Bombardiers.

      It is very boring when everyone's base is the same. They use same units and same spots with the same choke point. Also massed Anti-air defences around the bombardiers.

  • #7
    Two other ways I think they could nerf the Bombardier without crippling him too much. 1) They could make it so Bombardier doesn't get stunned by Bombardier. This might seem like a buff, but what it means is if you dropped a decoy on a group of Bombardiers their attacks would kill themselves. Right now their stun weakness actually works in their favor and prevents them from taking lethal damage, and so the decoy is often wasted as a result. 2) Make it so Iron Lungs cannot be equipped to Bombardiers. Bombardier bases are tough, but they can be beaten. The worst of the worst by far though are the ones where the opponent is running Iron Lungs on his Bombardier. Take away their iron lung advantage and I think they should be much more manageable.

    Its a tricky situation though, as I suspect the community won't be happy with whatever the devs do here. Also I thought Steady combined with the tactical boots did work against Bombardiers? Maybe someone could make a video on it. If it doesn't work, it really should. Riots should have a pass to steady, but not Bombardiers.

    Comment


    • #8
      The Bombardier argument is typically one of the 'haves' vs the 'have-nots'. As a 'have-not' I typically try to avoid PvP attacks on Bombardier bases as what you are describing is on point. The stagger is extreme and the Steady perks really don't give my troops a reprieve frome the effect while taking away a better suited perk.
      Cusman had a great write up about making the Grenader have the same ability of shooting over walls and such, without FF, much like the similar related troops machine gunner and commando- share the same attack but one is geared as more powerful.
      You touched on part of the issue I have and that is the Air Defense. If a Bombardier base has 7 or more Air Defenses, I usually pass on that as you know what is coming and Decoy only goes so far (iron lung is in place for sure).
      I would like to see the possibility of an adjustment on the Air Defense and see how that helps the situation. The Air Defense is the only defensive 'shooting' structure that has no deployment radius limitations so they are typically stacked behind the Bombardier 'fan' looking at the choke point. Maybe that would help, make the so the Air Defense can only overlap so much.
      Also, for the life of me, I cannot figure out the Riot guys affinity for the Air Defense. The Air Defense is like a magnet for the Riot and the Riot attack does next to nothing as the Air Defense doesn't get stunned or paused and there goes your front line of defense, especially for the Bombardier.
      So maybe some adjustments on the Air Defense, along with letting the little brother of the Bombardier having the same type of attack, will keep the 'haves' from complaining about nerfing their prized defender as there would be no adjustment there.

      Comment


      • #9
        Tyrollis1, so if certain players don't have "X" unit then the dev's need to nerf the game to accommodate for said players? Is that what you're saying? Because it sure sounds like it.

        Yes, some players find bomber bases impossible, conversely a lot of players don't, they find them easy to do. I can usually knock over 8 out of 10 bomber bases I encounter, you just need the right tools, timing and tactics.

        As Maus_1908 was saying, bomber and sniper bases are really the only bases left with any real challenge to be had, any other unit defend setup is ridiculously easy (a.k.a 'dull') for many players that frequent these boards. I have a bomber defend setup & see firsthand who 'can' and 'can't', the ones that can't usually go about it all wrong (bad or zero tactics) and arrive with a dodgy load-out (not-so-great perk lvl/troop combo)...However the ones that can, nail it, they certainly know what they're doing .

        Comment


        • Tyrolis1
          Tyrolis1 commented
          Editing a comment
          Where did I say nerf anything? I am saying adjust the game pieces to be like the other ones and stop the mindless prioritized attack of Air Defenses by the Riot. It is what it is am sure once I obtain the Bombardier I will join in the 'fun'.

      • #10
        Originally posted by Tyrolis1 View Post
        Also, for the life of me, I cannot figure out the Riot guys affinity for the Air Defense. The Air Defense is like a magnet for the Riot and the Riot attack does next to nothing as the Air Defense doesn't get stunned or paused and there goes your front line of defense, especially for the Bombardier.
        I also find it very annoying when the dumb Riot guys focus on Anti-Air while ignoring everything else shooting at them. I think it has to do with their low range and dumb AI.

        If Riot shots would at least stun the Anti-Air structures taking one out of active status (since they all focus on the same one instead of spreading around their attacks), then I would be okay with it.
        Alliance: Helldivers
        YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/cusman

        Comment


        • #11
          I have to agree with you on AA and Riots, cusman.

          Comment


          • cusman
            cusman commented
            Editing a comment
            I would hope it is a no brainer for everyone that plays the game because why wouldn't you want the tactical option of dropping a couple of Missile on an Anti-Air stunned by Riots to free up the Riots from their stupid obsession and get back in formation.

        • #12

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