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Observations of a new player - It's no wonder this game is as dead as a doornail.

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  • Observations of a new player - It's no wonder this game is as dead as a doornail.

    Hoh boy, where do I begin.

    1.) Pathfinding. It's atrocious. Units regularly backtrack for absolutely no good reason, take ludicrous paths when they have far shorter paths right in front of them and a great many bases seem to be build around exploiting the bad pathing and ai weaknesses. Which is beyond rage inducing. Add to this the habbit of the truck to lodge itself between two rocks, often times at the very end of it forcing all the spawned units to backtrack and then run around said rocks and I find myself wanting to rage quit.

    2.) First picking the game up is surprisingly fun and engaging. One makes progress, learns more about the game, unlocks some new units and then smashes head first into a complete stonewall. The enemies one is pitted against whom are rated as "2 stars" and the general difficulty skyrockets in no time whatsoever. Suddenly someone who just unlocked Machine Gunners find themselves faced with people who have three tents, 6 sniper towers, units with all teal perks and a HQ that spawns a Commando, Rocketeer, five Assaults and a Medic.

    3). Arcing back to 2. "Success" seems to be basically locked behind certain units. Grunt swarms overrun one till one gets a means to deal with them in the way of some unit that can easily take them out en masse. At which point they'll become a non issue for example. Later on it's basically sniper towers. Who aren't just apt at always sniping that expensive units making them unuseable but also clear out groups of units better and faster than bunkers can rendering bunkers moot.

    The way to "counter" this from watching various vids, is to deploy massed Riot and Surgeons. One which requires level 28 and thus comes about 20+ levels too late, the other one which is a very low chance hero unit.

    It kinda explains why that range is littered with dead accounts. It's like running face first into a cement wall.


  • #2
    The levels 30-50 are pretty rough.

    Comment


    • #3
      actually its real easy i tried it. level 8-52 in 1 season XD

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      • #4
        and afther level 57 its all a joke people says its harder when u hit 100K dogtags but the bases are stil a wandeling in the park

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by RolexHoster View Post
          actually its real easy i tried it. level 8-52 in 1 season XD
          WOAH! You did something almost two years ago! Very impressive. XD ;D (Sorry can't think of any other smileys right now)

          Something you did almost two years ago, before a bunch of units and other stuff was released, back when the game was far more active is so very, very, very relevant. No wait, it's not, not at all. I've started running into people running all teal perks, having hero perks and units at around level 20s. Most of them with the same few copy paste base setups. Two perk grunts and grenadiers do the job just fine when their HQ is gorging out rocketeers and commandos with hero perks atop of three tent spawns.

          May I assume your post is some strange form of autofellatio you're engaging in in public?

          Comment


          • #6
            Atrocious Pathfinding

            I don't think anybody with enough time in this game will argue that point with you. The Pathfinding and AI behavior in general can be very un-intuitive. Many base defense designers know of these weaknesses in the AI behavior and use it to make stronger defenses.

            Among the dumb behavior of the AI
            • Paratroopers AI behavior is stupid enough to not attack a structure that is blocking path (essentially treating it like a wall, like in example image below), even when passing withing normal attack range
            • Unit specific weaknesses like Riot units love turning their back (removing the benefit of their 3600 HP Shields) to attack non-critical Anti-Air guns around walls / rocks (bends in general)
            • Units can't decide which way to take when there is a long enough wall splitting the path (this causes circular behavior)
            Click image for larger version

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            Machine Gunner / Rocketeer HQ Squad

            Umm, yeah don't use the Machine Gunner. Stick to Ranger / Sniper and you will fare much better. The Machine Gunner is a horrible choice for how much Munitions it costs, especially early on in game when you don't have at least Legendary Minimum Wage Perks for your units.

            Bunkers

            Bunkers are useless in this game. Bases that use them are generally weaker for it. The only exception to this is Bunkers that are serving as a distraction at choke point where units emerging from choke will focus on Bunker (or Anti-Air) instead of everything shooting them in the face with much harder hitting damage. Even serving as distraction, they use up lot of real-estate and take more Build Points than an Anti-Air (which is better choice of distraction in my view).

            Riot & Surgeons

            You can Rent Riot units until you get to Level 30 and then Recruit them. It is easy to afford, especially if you don't waste any Munitions early in the game on recruiting generally useless unit like Machine Gunner. Alternative to Riot which you can recruit at Level 30 is to use Engineer in same role.

            You can see in my screenshot above and in many of my YouTube video uploads, I still use Engineer. They aren't just for use in Defense.

            Time vs Money

            One thing you are expressing is that it can take a long time to get X or Y. Being a F2P uncapped spend like a whale or play like you have no job or other time responsibilities type of game, you basically have those two paths open to you on your progression path. If you never improve in the game knowledge and tactical skills and instinct it ultimately will not matter and you will hit an impenetrable wall of what you find to be overly difficult / unbalanced opponents, but the path to progression is the same for all players. They can spend a lot of time, or a lot of money, or a mix of the two.

            You have to decide for yourself how much are you really into this game. How much time / money are you willing to dedicate to reaching higher tier of opponents. Rest assured the further you continue the tougher the average opponent you face will continue to get. The game will continually up / down the difficulty balance based on your particular relative win / loss statistics and try to find you Easy, Medium, and Hard (Nightmare) opponents, but it doesn't mean you will not occasionally face more difficult opponents as 2 White Skull than you do in your Nightmare. Sometimes it isn't the base, but your unfamiliarity with the base that makes it more difficult.
            Alliance: Helldivers
            YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/cusman

            Comment


            • #7
              "Bunkers are useless in this game." Amen to that.

              "Sometimes it isn't the base, but your unfamiliarity with the base that makes it more difficult." I'll second this one, as well. I've fought 1-skull bases that kicked my butt and 3-skull that were a breeze.

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              • #8
                Bunkers are not useless. If you look at them for the damage they can inflict then they might seem lackluster in comparison to towers. However, we generally run Bunkers for their distractive capabilities. They can really mess an opponent up as either the focal or even non focal of a choke point.

                As a focal point and especially with Engineers, they can keep the engaged for a while as they try to whittle away the bunker's pretty massive health.

                As a non-focal point, say hidden behind a rock, they are still very useful, even if the enemy is ignoring them. And the reason for this is basically because its inflicting a stun status affect on them, one in which the steady perk is designed to combat in fact. Which is why even though the bunkers themselves seem to not be doing much, your units don't seem to be accomplishing much either, not until you drop a decoy or a tear gas to neutralize that bunker. Once the bunker has been neutralized you'll notice your units seem to be performing at a much higher level, because the status effect the bunker was generating by firing at them has been temporarily neutralized.

                Comment


                • cusman
                  cusman commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Bunkers are only effective at short range and come at cost of 40 Build Points. The main use of them I see in the wild is as an oversize expensive distractor that uses more Build Points than anything else. Most experienced base designers change to using an Anti-Air as the distractor instead to keep that time attacker gets as low as possible.

                  Engineers healing Bunker and them having lot of Health Points would be lot more viable if the Engineer repair rate would stack. As of now, whether you have 1 Engineer or many, the repair rate has a fixed speed and attackers can destroy things much faster.

              • #9
                Originally posted by Maraud3r*PC View Post
                Hoh boy, where do I begin.

                1.) Pathfinding. It's atrocious. Units regularly backtrack for absolutely no good reason, take ludicrous paths when they have far shorter paths right in front of them and a great many bases seem to be build around exploiting the bad pathing and ai weaknesses. Which is beyond rage inducing. Add to this the habbit of the truck to lodge itself between two rocks, often times at the very end of it forcing all the spawned units to backtrack and then run around said rocks and I find myself wanting to rage quit.

                2.) First picking the game up is surprisingly fun and engaging. One makes progress, learns more about the game, unlocks some new units and then smashes head first into a complete stonewall. The enemies one is pitted against whom are rated as "2 stars" and the general difficulty skyrockets in no time whatsoever. Suddenly someone who just unlocked Machine Gunners find themselves faced with people who have three tents, 6 sniper towers, units with all teal perks and a HQ that spawns a Commando, Rocketeer, five Assaults and a Medic.

                3). Arcing back to 2. "Success" seems to be basically locked behind certain units. Grunt swarms overrun one till one gets a means to deal with them in the way of some unit that can easily take them out en masse. At which point they'll become a non issue for example. Later on it's basically sniper towers. Who aren't just apt at always sniping that expensive units making them unuseable but also clear out groups of units better and faster than bunkers can rendering bunkers moot.

                The way to "counter" this from watching various vids, is to deploy massed Riot and Surgeons. One which requires level 28 and thus comes about 20+ levels too late, the other one which is a very low chance hero unit.

                It kinda explains why that range is littered with dead accounts. It's like running face first into a cement wall.
                The reason why the game is littered with dead accounts is because many players make multiple accounts and then eventually either stop playing or abandon those accounts.

                Having recently started a 2nd account myself, I can tell you that you're completely wrong about success being locked behind certain units. First of all the game is very generous to new players now, giving you 25 keys and a 3 chests, one of each color. I was lucky enough to get commandos, but even so the focus of my new army is based almost entirely on my Assault units. A unit many consider to being garbage and I'm having no problems beating supposedly better opponents who have access to Riot, Surgeons, or whatever. Also I've yet on either this new or my primary account felt the need that I had to spend money to be competitive or successful in the game.

                As to pathfinding, I'm puzzled as to why people think the pathfinding should be perfect? If the game did all the work for you there wouldn't be much of a game IMO. For the most part the pathfinding is adequate and usually its more of a someone being sour as to why they lost. In short this is something that is often greatly exaggerated as a shortcoming for this game, its not that bad, really. In fact its the quirks that make the game as good as it is. I guarantee you if the pathfinding was perfect, there wouldn't be much of a game. People would complain (as they've done before) that the devs have ruined the game by making it too easy to beat any base. So unless its some game breaking glitch, I think it would be the devs and even the community's best interest to tread lightly when making changes here.

                Comment


                • cusman
                  cusman commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I agree that quirks of the AI are part of the strategy. Where I think there is room for improvement is when the AI does completely stupid thing like ignore a Sniper Tower just because that is blocking path and is thus seen like a piece of Wall (even when units pass it within their normal firing range).

                  I drew green arrow showing path my Paratroopers took ignoring right past that Sniper Tower. They then took out the Mortar on other side of rocks through that small game units can shoot through, and then started shooting at the wall.

              • #10
                Originally posted by Kenpo_Kid69 View Post
                Bunkers are not useless. If you look at them for the damage they can inflict then they might seem lackluster in comparison to towers. However, we generally run Bunkers for their distractive capabilities. They can really mess an opponent up as either the focal or even non focal of a choke point.
                No, they're pretty damn bad all around. They have terrible range, their HP pool is actually surprisingly small, their damage output is pretty terrible. They can't hold a candle to sniper towers or even regular snipers.

                You could argue that bunkers are good but snipers in general are too strong. As it stands the high base damage of snipers kills most everything dead with little issue. That they also pierce and kill everything else standing behind their target just ends up allowing them to clear stuff far more easily than a bunker could. So they fill both roles, killing both beefy and swarm units and fill both vastly better than a bunker does.

                As to pathfinding, I'm puzzled as to why people think the pathfinding should be perfect? If the game did all the work for you there wouldn't be much of a game IMO.
                This is about the most stupid thing I have heard this week and I've heard a lot of stupid things. Beyond rallying flags the player HAS NO CONTROL OR INFLUENCE ON THE PATHING AND HOW UNITS MOVE WHATSOEVER. If someone is entirely automated it has to work and work well. The game already DOES THE ENTIRE WORK it just does it VERY BADLY.

                May I assume you're one of those folks abusing sandbags and other stuff to bug out units? You seem the type.

                Comment


                • #11
                  Its not about how many units they kill or their damage output. Its more about bunkers being a distraction and their effect on enemy units to hinder them with stun from their bullet barrage while your other units wipe them out. Their HP pool is actually surprisingly large when used properly. It can take forever to take a bunker out if its positioned well and/or they have mechanics healing them. Its not until you cover it in tear gas, decoy it, or destroy it from outside of its range with snipers that it loses its claws. Start thinking of the Bunker as less of an aggro structure and more of a support structure and it might make a bit more sense to you.

                  As to me being the type to abuse sandbags to bug out units? You'd lose that bet.

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    HQ that spawns a Commando, Rocketeer, five Assaults and a Medic.
                    I really want that card forever.

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